I'm Rob Driscoll, Director of Legal and Business at ECA. I am by trade a solicitor and also a qualified mediator. ECA has a business policy and practice or legal and commercial, whichever way you want to call it. Inquiry desk. So members can access us. Hi, I'm Darren Cranis. I'm a technical manager here at the ECA. And how can the technical team add value to your business? Well, the ECA represents over 3000 member companies here in the UK.

approximately 27,000 operatives and we help our members by giving them guidance and assurance to electro-technical problems. So that could be any problems in terms of BS 7671 or any other sort of technical standards you may be installing too. Is there anything else you want to chat about? Or do you get any questions that come over to us do you think?

I think the most common area of concern at the moment is something we raised on our Net Zero road shows, which is smart tech increases. What is it you're doing as a contractor? So you commonly or historically might supply and install, you may or may not do a bit of design, but where things are becoming smart, or you might be a prosumer that's

generating through solar, storing through battery, another area, and maybe supplying back into the grid. You might also be dealing with software. So it's not necessarily a question, but you might want to comment on the danger period here, particularly with AVV chargers and other apparatus like that, is the client, be it commercial or consumer,

is standing there looking at a post saying, it don't work, I want my money back. A perfectly reasonable stance to take, even if you don't think so. Why? Because the app won't connect.

Omar Khalil (02:06.584)
They don't care why. You're then talking to the supplier who might be your wholesaler or distributor. They didn't make it, manufacturer did. They're trying to duck it and say, talk to manufacturer, you're under manufacturer's warranty. Yeah, well, we didn't buy it from them. We bought it from you. Who takes responsibility for the software or software faults or firmware updates? I just wonder whether you had any comments on that.

That's a really, really good sort of question and answer on that one, because a lot of our members are installing brand new technology, solar systems, battery systems, EV charges, much larger systems. So it's much more now than just the hardware they're putting in. And often they are either brokering the deal between the software agent, which may be the manufacturer or a third party app and the end user. So they're sort of piggy in the middle, piggy in the middle, I should say.

And often more time is spent commissioning, updating software, firmware. Again, these are all possibly manufacturer or third party related programs or liabilities, but the member is sort of left piggy in the middle.

Yeah, think members get squeezed. buy materials, they buy labor, and they are systems integrators who almost design or iron out bugs along the way of installation. mean, the answer from my perspective is, well, what did your contract say? Yeah, again, I'm asking that question with the client. Did you exclude it? Responsibility for software integration. think it's perfectly reasonable that if I buy a new mobile phone handset,

They are not guaranteeing necessarily the performance of Android or iOS in the case of Apple. Obviously, if you buy an Apple one, it's the same thing. You might have to count the reference to Apple. They're quite sensitive about that. Sorry. But if I bought a mobile phone handset, the retailer is only promising that the handset will work.

Omar Khalil (04:22.282)
not the platform upon which it's supposed to operate. That is supplied by others who will remain nameless, but we all know who they are. It's the same argument here. You buy a laptop or an EV charger post. You aren't necessarily saying other than it will take this version of that operating system, promising that the internet will work.

or the mobile phone network will work. It really comes down to what's the fault. My other issue with materials is just be very careful. The way material supplier works is it's almost like drawing off an Amazon account. At some point, when you set up your Amazon account, you agree to the terms and conditions of supply, whether you're buying direct from them or through a marketplace or any other retailer, because I should be generic in this sense. You don't look at the T's and C's every time you

order parts or materials. Quite often in electrical supply agreements for materials only, there will be a very, very short window of opportunity to return damaged or incorrect or defective or defaultive products coupled with a limitation that will then say, we are responsible for exchange or replacement, not labor or consequential costs.

So you suddenly have a batch problem with lamps or light fittings or something like that. And you need to replace all of them because the clients lost confidence in them. And you've got a labor cost attached to that, which you are taking the hit on because your supply agreement says they don't. Just be very careful. But I am going to say advert for our virtual bookshelf behind the payroll on our webpage. We have a ECA Purchased Materials Agreement.

which is drafted wholly in the contractor's favor to reconcile some of these issues. And there a bunch of other templates and guidance notes there as well, which will help you with templates for subcontracts, sub subcontracts, when you're contracting with the main contractor or various other scenarios.

Omar Khalil (06:41.774)
think that's really good because some of our members contact us and we are going through a big growth development stage, especially with technology like we say EV charges, battery storage systems, solar PV, where equipment they may install may fail within a very short time. it's effectively, you could say, defective goods in the first sort of 12 months. The manufacturer will often say, yes, we'll warrant the product, but we won't warrant labor going out.

So that something that members need to be aware of? So their agreements with suppliers and also sort of building in, perhaps costs to their quotes to allow that this may happen. So I guess this is probably the importance of making that dirty word called profit. Yeah, I think you've got to factor in if you're growing into that space and you're starting to deliver a service. mean, when we did the net zero road shows, we talked about how you can turn a business from a

hardware supply and install system that just works with lighting or power or whatever else into a subscription based system where you're almost turning it into maintenance contracts. So your cashflow and your prediction of labor becomes constant because you've got a planned maintenance where you're integrating systems. We also talked about where actually you're integrating to be voice controlled lighting or various other bits and pieces.

how it might just be a service offering. I myself gave an example on that where we had stuff done at home and the contractor was brilliant, really tidy, brilliant, professional and everything else. So tidy they took away the instructions. And my first impression was, I don't know how to operate it. Now it was fine, we sorted it because they had that service offering attached to them.

in the sense of that just came to me, of course we'll pop back and sort of that, but someone else would have been less okay with, okay, how do I turn this on and play with my new toy? so I think you've always got to have one mind on what would the immediate after sales care look like? What happens if we find bugs? they are technically defects or

Omar Khalil (09:08.66)
non-performances contractually. And you want to leave the client or customer with good feeling around that. So why wouldn't you factor into your business model? But there is a cost attached to it. So really what we're saying now is rather than just install and run effectively, which the whole &E market is, install, commission, handover, go. We should really be looking at opportunities here. And that's probably

Service contracts, ongoing maintenance, periodic check-ins. I guess these things are labor only. They won't be material expensive because there won't be any cost. I'm looking at maybe those service contracts, a bit like what the IT sector done many years ago. Yeah. We're all living in a subscription society now, Netflix, Amazon, other brands where for a certain amount of month, people don't mind paying for the security of knowing that that's covered as opposed to one-off payments that you ever plan to spend on.

new heating or electrics have gone wrong and they're being stung not by the contractor but stung for an unforeseeable large expense that they never planned on having. So I think certainly in the consumer space, it's more akin to what people would expect. And I think when you upscale in the commercial space as well, be it with solar and other technologies, it's more likely to be factored into

a static budget line and wanting to see it put in an emergency budget. So hopefully you might see the days of the install contractor now slowly becoming a service contractor. Yes. I believe that's where the smart money is. So we would, the other common issue that crosses both of our desks, EICRs, just to give my perspective, they are a survey, nothing more.

We've had this conversation internally at many times. Yes, I am not technical. So I apologise for my lack of appetites to get involved into what goes into an EICR. But if you look at it from a legal or contractual perspective, this is one where you are offering service. You're not supplying goods. You may then be hired post EICR to carry out any remedial works identified by the EICR. But the EICR

Omar Khalil (11:31.626)
in and of itself is just a survey. You are being asked by a client to go in, have a look at things and come up with a report. You'll therefore need PI insurance in case you're negligent, but your standard is to carry out those EICRs with reasonable skill and care, identify what you can't have access to or include. And then if you do get contracted, do it separately.

to carry out the remedial works. that makes your report truly independent as well, because technically the client could go to someone else and say, we'll get it fixed by someone else, thanks. I mean, the clues in the title of that one, it's electrical insulation condition and report. And we can't emphasize technically an amount on that report. It's a professional report. And I think what members are saying often is they feel pressured with liability that if they go and spot something,

That means an unsatisfactory report, so the electrical installation is no longer safe or continued use. They feel that they're liable for that and they widened about their liabilities. And often that we actually say is, it's just a professional report. It's no different to a roofing survey or a land survey, providing they carry it out with professional integrity. The moment they step out of that threshold, there's no liabilities with anything that may happen in that electrical installation. Would you agree with that? Yes.

And that's what you've got to do. It's almost like the red face test, stand with integrity at the end of the report. I mean, yes, surveys can be commissioned for all sorts of reasons. You can get a house survey and ask the surveyor to identify immediate short, medium, long-term issues and actually put a schedule of pricing on the back of it so that you can use that as leverage to negotiate the price down or up as the case may be.

So if the EICR was being done for a particular purpose, I would still say use your integrity because there is a system of what you do and do not mark out within that report and make sure that you would stand up to scrutiny either way by the property owner or by the occupant if they were two different people. Often we get questions at the back of that. Again, it's a professional report.

Omar Khalil (13:54.479)
Sometimes as engineers, our members will say what needs to be said, not what maybe the client wants to hear. So often this results in an unsatisfactory report. They may give that remedial quote. As you said, there's no obligation to, but the client will cherry pick what they want or they won't get it completed at all. So occasionally members do say, what are our liabilities? And in my view, in our view at technical, it's the duty holder is responsible at the end of the day for safety in the home or office.

or wherever it may be, there's no sort of liabilities on the contractor who's done the work. The interesting thing about that, right? So the duty holder is the landowner or the office of commercial tenant. Depending on what way you want to look at it, might be somebody that looks after employees. So in the context of health and safety, it'd be them. It could be somebody with tenants as residential. They might have mortgages or charges, lending. They will have requirements in that lending.

for insurance. They'll have insurance anyway, hopefully for buildings and possibly contents. In which case, those documents might also have requirements to maintain the building in compliance with all relevant technical standards. An EICR would be evidence of that. So why would they want an EICR with negatives on it, which they didn't address, even if it's going to cost them money?

If it then undermines whether they're complying with the loan conditions or their buildings or contents, insurance requirements. So there's a number of ways to look at it if you're smart rather than just cutting corners. Yeah, because quite often I remember saying, you know, they give a report, but obviously it is for either, example, the PRS scheme, which is obviously legislation for the private rental sector, or maybe for insurance purposes. And often we sort of give advice to our members to say, well,

If they are the insurance requirements, then your client will need to comply with that. Just make sure you know who your client is. So in that case, your EICR is being done for the landlord, presumably. Yes. Not for the insurer. mean, again, with a house survey, you can get surveys commissioned by the prospective buyer, which also has a line of liability into the...

Omar Khalil (16:22.723)
mortgagee, but unless you've got something that says that you're not going to be liable for their to their insurer or to the tenant. You just be clear that your EICR is procured and bought and paid for by your client and that's your liability. essentially when members are carrying out EICRs, so which is obviously a professional report, providing they've they set the scope of their client, which

Quite often it's rare, but provided they've agreed what they're going to do, they're going to carry it out in a professional and safe manner and they produce a high quality report. They basically discharge their any liabilities and their duties. Yeah. Do we have a template on this? We have, what, in terms of templates or we have... carrying out the ICR. It's a report that say there's a model form. So on the technical website, we have model forms for

EICRs. fact, we have model forms for a lot of documentation that's needed. So certification, documentation. We also have guides on how to complete EICRs and videos on our YouTube channel on how to complete electrical certification. Brilliant work done. Follow them in. Almost.